A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

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This includes requests to lift sanctions previously imposed
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Arbitration Committee proceedings

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Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Yasuke	13 Nov 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

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Requests for arbitration

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

Submitting a request: (you must use this format!)

Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
- Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
- Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
- Click here to file a referral from AE requesting enforcement of a decision.
- Click here to file a referral from AE appealing an arbitration enforcement action.
Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

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Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Guidance on participation and word limits

Unlike many venues on Wikipedia, ArbCom imposes word limits. Please observe the below notes on complying with word limits.

Motivation. Word limits are imposed to promote clarity and focus on the issues at hand and to ensure that arbitrators are able to fully take in submissions. Arbitrators must read a large volume of information across many matters in the course of their service on the Committee, so submissions that exceed word limits may be disregarded. For the sake of fairness and to discourage gamesmanship (i.e., to disincentivize "asking forgiveness rather than permission"), word limits are actively enforced.
In general. Most submissions to the Arbitration Committee (including statements in arbitration case requests and ARCAs and evidence submissions in arbitration cases) are limited to 500 words, plus 50 diffs. During the evidence phase of an accepted case, named parties are granted an automatic extension to 1000 words plus 100 diffs.
Sectioned discussion. To facilitate review by arbitrators, you should edit only in your own section. Address your submission to arbitrators, not to other participants. If you wish to rebut, clarify, or otherwise refer to another submission for the benefit of arbitrators, you may do so within your own section. (More information.)
Requesting an extension. You may request a word limit extension in your submission itself (using the {{@ArbComClerks}} template) or by emailing clerks-llists.wikimedia.org. In your request, you should briefly (in 1-2 sentences) include (a) why you need additional words and (b) a broad outline of what you hope to discuss in your extended submission. The Committee endeavors to act upon extension requests promptly and aims to offer flexibility where warranted.
- Members of the Committee may also grant extensions when they ask direct questions to facilitate answers to those questions.
Refactoring statements. You should write carefully and concisely from the start. It is impermissible to rewrite a statement to shorten it after a significant amount of time has passed or after anyone has responded to it (see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines § Editing own comments), so it is often advisable to submit a brief initial statement to leave room to respond to other users if the need arises.
Sign submissions. In order for arbitrators and other participants to understand the order of submissions, sign your submission and each addition (using ~~~~).
Word limit violations. Submissions that exceed the word limit will generally be "hatted" (collapsed), and arbitrators may opt not to consider them.
Counting words. Words are counted on the rendered text (not wikitext) of the statement (i.e., the number of words that you would see by copy-pasting the page section containing your statement into a text editor or word count tool). This internal gadget may also be helpful.
Sanctions. Please note that members and clerks of the Committee may impose appropriate sanctions when necessary to promote the effective functioning of the arbitration process.

General guidance

Arbitrators and clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.
Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.
Only arbitrators and clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups.
Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

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Motions

Shortcuts

This section can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Motions.

Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You may visit WP:ARC or WP:ARCA for potential alternatives.

Make a motion (Arbitrators only)

You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion" or in some cases only in your own section. Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment.

Requests for enforcement

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important information

Shortcuts

Please use this page only to:

request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator,
request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic,
request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or
appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators.

For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard.

Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions.

To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.

Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following:

All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction.

The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may:

ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email.

Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template.

A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted.

Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction

An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies:

The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change,^[a] or is no longer an administrator;^[b] or
The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and:
- the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or
- the restriction was an indefinite block.

A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction:

a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE,
a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN,
a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA.

Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped.

Standard of review
On community review

Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or
the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption.

On Arbitration Committee review

Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if:

the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or
compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions

The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state:

Appeals by sanctioned editors

Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may:

ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision;
request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and
submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org).

Modifications by administrators

No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without:

the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or
prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below).

Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature.
All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue.

Information for administrators processing requests

Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give.

A couple of reminders:

Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request.
When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X".
Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Wikipedia and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Wikipedia policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it.
More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated.

Closing a thread:

Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days.
Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct.
You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages.
Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log.

Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Arbitration enforcement archives

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Request for 1RR at Fascism

1RR removed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This article had 1RR imposed indefinitely in 2009, by KrakatoaKatie, as an individual admin action. Judging based on comments so far, there's uncertainty about whether the restriction is enforceable. The options are to leave the restriction in limbo, remove the restriction, or have an admin adopt the restriction explicitly under CT, potentially AmPol. Are any admins willing to do so? There has been recent, AmPol-adjacent disruption of the article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a serious issue with an article restriction stuck in limbo like this. Some admins and editors think it's in place and enforceable, and others think it's misplace and unenforceable. We should move in one direction or the other. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To make the connection a bit more explicit:

The main person recently edit warring to remove "far-right" as a descriptor of fascism is Johnny Spasm. I'll drop a formal notice at their talk page, but to be clear, I'm not advocating for enforcement action against him. Diffs of removal: 1, 2, 3, 4.
JS contextualized this repeated removal as an American-politics-related action in comments at the talk page:
1. dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they "live in Seattle, Washington" (diff)
2. identifying as an "American with far right beliefs" and arguing that "it is the far left in America that displays more fascist values than the far right", calling Biden out specifically (diff)
3. Criticizes the descriptor's inclusion while "both candidates in the US Presidential election are throwing around the word fascism" ([1])

If that's not enough of a connection, it's unlikely that enforcement of the 1RR could be reasonably connected to any other CT, and the restriction should be removed. Admins here, with experience judging which articles are covered by which CTs, are best placed to make the call to either adopt the restriction or remove it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty actively edited, with multiple reversions in the past week. I have no objection to allowing it to lapse, though, replacing it if needed. KKatie hasn't edited in a week, maybe suspense for a few days as not urgent? Valereee (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has not been any other recent major edit warring. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a minor edit war over the same left v. right issue on 10 November. Three editors involved, and one reverted twice. That editor has a brief enough edit history that it's easily gleaned that they are American or have a predominant interest in American topics. Only edit to a political bio is an American political bio.

Again, I wouldn't object to someone determining that this is not enough disruption and removing the restriction. Either side of this knife's edge would be good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, I missed this discussion somehow. Sorry, everybody. :-( If there's no need, by all means let's lift it. I remember placing this, which is a minor miracle considering I don't remember to rinse the conditioner from my hair sometimes, and it was a barn burner of an edit war back then. I'm all for lifting stuff that's no longer necessary. Katie^talk 14:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging ScottishFinnishRadish and Valereee, who both mentioned wanting to hear from KK. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like with p-blocks available, we probably can pull the 1RR off and see what happens. It's easy enough to put it back if it turns out it was helping. Valereee (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with lifting it. Is it in an edit notice, or logged anywhere? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's at Template:Editnotices/Page/Fascism. No log that I could find. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it with a reference to this discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like lifting the restriction is agreed but I checked a couple of recent edits that asserted fascism is a far-left ideology (one editor went on to make the same claim regarding Nazism), and it is crystal-clear that it is an AP issue. I know we're supposed to be nice but edits like that warrant a NOTHERE or CIR indef, IMHO. While we have to welcome new editors, we also have a duty to support established editors who get worn down by the grinding river of ignorance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Southasianhistorian8

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

21:37, November 12 Ignores WP:ONUS, edit warring in order to restore POV-pushing/WP:COATRACK content after that content had been removed by Nyttend.
02:11, November 14 Repeats the same WP:COATRACK behaviour at another article, just over 24hrs after Nyttend (a longstanding administrator) warned them about WP:COATRACK on their talk page.
08:49 November 14 Personal attack towards me on their userpage in response to sharing my concern about diff2 and agreeing with Nyttend, claims I'm "piling on my t/p over a topic that does not concern you as a form of petty bullying/harassment and revenge." (bolding mine; Nyttend was the only other user with a message on their talk page)
10:05 November 14 Leaves a retaliatory message on my talk page, spurned by my reverting of their edit in diff2.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH continues to push their anti-Sikh POV into articles. Diff1 shows them adding repetitive content which was already covered in the article, not to mention that it has its own article. Repeating in such detail can only be interpreted as an attempt to draw a equivalency between Khalistan movement and the Canada-India row that is not supported by sources.

Diff2 shows them doing them same at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, using that article as a COATRACK to add content about a tangentially relevant person, content which belong in an article about that person, and attempting to further their POV that Nijjar was a "militant".

Diffs 3 and 4 showcase an unwillingness to self-reflect when conduct concerns are brought up, getting defensive with personal attacks, retaliatory warnings, and digging up of past dirt (which they already mentioned in the last AE thread about them). At no point do they acknowledge WP:COATRACK either in response to Nyttend or myself.

Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a LISTENing issue or a WP:NOTHERE issue. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@103.251.217.66: I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of WP:EW (after the user made an agreement to never edit war[2] as part of their SOCK unblock request), WP:NPOV, and WP:NPA. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Has SAH gotten a waiver of the word limit that I'm not aware of? They are at 1552 by my count. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ivanvector: While BLPCRIME is a reason why I reverted diff 2, it was not the only reason, with the other reason being that I felt SAH was pushing a POV using WP:COATRACK edits, something they had been warned about 24 hours previously for the edit in diff 1. My issue with the edit to Hardeep Singh Nijjar re: Arsh Dalla is beyond the BLPCRIME issue. It goes into the aspect of using another person's arrest to further a POV that Nijjar was a militant extremist.

The fact that SAH filed a report about Simonm223 to AN today[3] for simply trying to engage with SAH at SAH's talk page[4], then WP:BADGERed voorts at voort's talk page after voorts closed the thread[5] shows that SAH's conduct is the primary issue, not the content of any article. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 23:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: it is at DRN [6] on referral by Voorts after SAH made a thread reporting Simonm223 at ANI [7], was warned for forum shopping, then badgered voorts at their talk page[8] The DRN has new posts tonight that I still need to catch up on. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...Okay, seriously, this is getting out of hand now. SAH's response to being asked to state concisely what they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same at DRN is to post a wall of text outlining their entire rationale to insert what they call "a brief few sentences or paragraphs" (huh?). Is this not WP:BLUDGEONING of a discussion?[9] ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[10]

Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

(Note, below is SAH's original statement, the one people have commented on. The altered statement, where he removed/changed the things others had criticised, so that their criticism no longer made sense, can be found here. See my comment down in the admin section (in a moment from now) for why I've put their original statement back. Bishonen | tålk 09:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC).)[reply]

Talk about desperation. Any outsider can take a look at my handling on Khalistan movement and see that I handled myself very responsibly as opposed to GhostofDanGurney who keeps lobbing personal attacks at editors he dislikes. I only made one revert, and when Nyttend posted on my t/p, I told him I would not revert further, and initiated a discussion on the t/p. The content I added was literally a direct result of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Khalistan activist, and the RCMP's allegations of India's operations against Khalistan activists, so clearly the event is relevant to the page at least to some degree and I'm extremely confident that editors at 3O or DRN will agree. The content there wasn't even authored by me, I copied it (with attribution) from the Canada-India diplomatic row. If I was so biased, wouldn't I be trying to suppress this information? I figured that precluding such a consequential event would be irresponsible and make it appear as though the page was skewed towards a pro-India narrative. What more do you want from me?

Now, in line with GhostofDanGurney hastily making edits to get one over me such as here-where he engaged in interpretation of a primary source to publicy discredit a figure, as confirmed by ScottishFinnishRadish on A/E, here where he falsely accused me of plagiarizing his work Now he falsely called Arsh Dalla a "low profile" individual thus wrongly invoking BLPCRIME; Ghost could have spent at least 10 minutes researching this guy or at least initiated a respectful discussion on the t/p instead of piling attacks on my t/p. Instead he made a rude condescending post on my t/p, threatening to escalate matters and stating that I need to confirm whether I understand Wikipedia's policies to him, as if he's my boss or something. He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments, instead coming here to again win a content dispute illegitimately.

Now just days after his failed A/E request where he was also criticized for making personal attacks and making nonconstructive edits, he's again wasting everyone's tie over this drama. This ridiculous BATTLEGROUND behaviour should not be given carte-blanche here.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostofDanGurney- Is one revert on the Khalistan movement page, in which I believed the removal from Nyttend to be a simple misunderstanding and subsequently went on the t/p, and zero reverts on the Hardeep Singh Nijjar page - for a grand total of one revert considered "edit warring". If so, you've edit warred hundreds of times as well Ghost. You've also told people to "fuck themselves", called them "thots" and "hypocrites" and more; I've never come close to saying something like that. Again, I strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults. Literally every disagreement on his t/p is met with a nasty response-[11], [12]. This ill-researched statement is like the last time when you falsely accused me of plagiarizing your work.

Regarding, allegations of BLPCRIME or Dalla's low-profile/non public figure status-I've laid out a comprehensive case here-which shows extensive media coverage surrounding Dalla + sources in which Dalla clearly gave interviews to the media thus making him a high profile person as per Wiki policy. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Kite, I saw a thread on the article's t/p in which two editors expressed a desire to move the paragraph about the diplomatic row in the lead of the article. I removed the paragraph from the lead, and intended to move it and expand on it in the body of the article, but was unexpectedly called away before I could. By the time I returned, you had reverted me. In hindsight, I should have made my 2nd intended edit immediately afterwards and linked the t/p discussion, so my apologies for that. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(End of original statement)

@Bishonen:, those year old edit summaries are part of a continuing pattern of Ghost's hostility to anyone who disagrees with him, even as recent. The underlying behaviour hasn't changed at all, he was making inflammatory edit summaries, which SFR acknowledged in the first A/E not too long ago-[13] + [14], then right after that he took a quote from a primary source and framed it in a very inflammatory way (also acknowledged by SFR) to clearly cause irritation. His t/p reveals numerous attacks against people who disagree with him as recent as 2023-ironically it was him who did not have consensus and [15]. He also admitted to messaging Kautilya3 on Twitter after a heated content dispute, which is pretty absurd.

As for this edit-[16], I explicitly stated that it shouldn't have been in the lead-Please gain WP:CONSENSUS to add this to the article's lead, in accordance with the t/p discussion. I already apologized for the poor communication on my part here (I should have stated my intention to move and expand the para and linked the t/p discussion) and admit that I should take care to not add WIP edits, but I feel like AGF should apply here, especially when I already apologized and it involves my private life. I'm willing to own up to when I make a mistake.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In all, I think that a good solution to this conflict(s) would be a 2 way IBAN between Ghost and myself, after the DRN or any other consensus building forum has concluded. Our editing seems to primarily intersect at two pages-Hardeep Singh Nijjar and Canada-India diplomatic row out of the many hundreds of pages we've edited, the C-I row is not a page I'm particularly interested in anymore. There may be more developments on those two pages surrounding the ongoing criminal investigation, but that's not something I'm too interested in and will likely not make edits towards. I'm committed to resolving the Nijjar content dispute peacefully through consensus, and I hope Ghost will too, and I'll also commit to avoiding GoDG as much as possible from hereon. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz, I agree, but a lot of my earlier thoughts/responses were unorganized as this a pretty complicated, high stress dispute. Would me linking my earlier responses be a good solution? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This was my previous statement(s) up until 21 November 4:38 , I substantially altered it for length and because a lot of the responses were spur of the moment/unorganized-[17]. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would also like to point that Bishonen is not an uninvolved administrator and is posting in the wrong section. We've had disagreements in the past regarding a blocked user's sock/meat status-[18]. That was a case in which I and another administrator believed the blocked account to be a sock, while Bishonen believed them to be a m/p.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 10:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've had 2 disagreements in the past over users alleged to be HaughtonBrit socks barely a few months ago. In the other case, a user who was initially deemed to be "unrelated" to HaughtonBrit, was later deemed a "possible indicator of sockpuppetry" after my report highlighted significant developments in their editing patterns. I believed the user to be a sock, Bishonen stated that she believed that they weren't. Given the contested nature of the latter disagreement, I dont think Bishonen counts as uninvolved administrator. This is what WP:UNINVOLVED states:Involvement is construed broadly by the community to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors), and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute.

The sockmaster in question was also someone whose sock reports sometimes faced significant opposition from admins, and it turned I was correct multiple times-in this case for example, an admin was looking to close my report, and it turned out that the user reported was making numerous edits logged out in violation of their block, which they themselves admitted to on their t/p-[19] Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 11:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish, could you provide your view on this? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 12:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish:, I feel like a topic ban is unnecessary. It shouldn't be ignored that this A/E request is primarily based of a content dispute which is currently underway at DRN-[20]. It should also be highlighted that I provided detailed and policy backed reasons for my proposed changes there, whereas G and Simonm gave curt one sentence responses. Is that not telling? I sincerely request that I be allowed to participate in the consensus building. It should also be noted that I did not edit war anywhere, and am making sincere efforts to gain consensus for my changes.

I also do a lot of work in cleaning up articles in this topic area, which is inundated with POV pushing, poor sourcing and lackluster content. Could you please consider allowing the DRN to conclude and a later IBAN between me and Ghost? I strongly believe that would cease any further conflicts. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 12:43, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also feel like my inexperience and mistakes at A/E shouldn't dictate the fate of my editing in the Wikipedia mainspace, which are vastly different from each other. The vast majority of my editing in the main space and on talk pages is productive, and I've worked to arrive consensuses consistently over the past 2 years. The dispute between Ghost and myself became so acrimonious and litigious, that it's impossible to handle both discussing on the article t/p, DRN, and handling numerous dogpiles on A/E. Again @ScottishFinnishRadish, please consider an alternative. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 13:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish, could you please let me know if something else other than a topic ban is on the table? Again, I find it punitive when I'm contributing substantially to the DRN and trying to seek a consensus there. Can we at least not see the assessment of other editors in that content dispute and what they make of Ghost and Simon's BLP/coatrack claims? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 13:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scratch that. Honestly, after seeing the immense toxicity on this site, where numerous editors dog-pile on you, lob false accusations against you, gaslight you and arm-twist you into believing their falsehoods, and just in general playing favourites with those in their own clique, all to get one over someone else in a content dispute, I've realized that Wikipedia is no longer a suitable place for me.

I would request an indef site ban for myself, and I do not intend to make any more edits here. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bishonen An indef site block would be good, and allow me to start a new chapter in life. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (103.251.217.66 (talk))

I think both needs to calm down. both should talk on the article talk page before making changes to the article and stop reverting changes.
I see this is only as content dispute... I don't think Southasianhistorian8 is attacking you op.. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostOfDanGurney&diff=prev&oldid=1255952101 you should assume good faith.. and you are also trying gatekeep article it seems to me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canada%E2%80%93India_diplomatic_row#NPOV

Statement by Simonm223

~~I would concur that both editors should probably both get some space from each other for a few days. A short-duration 2-way iBan might be a reasonable remedy here.~~ Most of the edits in contention from both editors don't seem disruptive although both could be a bit more careful with sourcing to avoid primary sources and to ensure that secondary sources are included in major edits. The only point of contention I'd take with either's position (as I don't think either is actually entirely wrong so much as operating at cross-purposes) surrounds the interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. Arsh Dalla is not a public figure per the definition laid out by WP:PUBLICFIGURE because his notoriety is entirely from the circumstances of him having been accused of a crime. As such the guidance, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime very much applies here. Simonm223 (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Southasianhistorian8 there is a key difference between Bishnoi and Dalla. Bishnoi stood trial and was convicted. My understanding is that Canada has declined to arrest and extradite Dalla. As such, since he is a free person and considered innocent both under Canadian law and by Wikipedia's standards, and since all the media coverage around him is about whether he did any criminal acts, we should not be commenting on him on Wikipedia. I hope this clarifies WP:BLPCRIME for you. Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly my attempt to provide some friendly help regarding the BLPCRIME issue has left me a bit more concerned about WP:IDHT than I was at the outset. Especially since WP:OSE statements do not override BLP policy. Simonm223 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully my last comment here I just want to apologize to @GhostOfDanGurney for originally interpreting this as a two-way interaction problem. I saw this and tried to sincerely help Southasianhistorian8 and the result was an ANI complaint, a DRN page and several repetitive textwalls. This is much more of a WP:BATTLEGROUND situation than I initially assumed with Southasianhistorian8 specifically and, what's worse, they appear to assume any attempt to assist them is an attack. I have struck my initial comments about a 2-way i-ban as I no longer believe that would be an effective remedy. Simonm223 (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Swatjester

Regardless of which side is correct on the merits of the arguments, it does *not* help SAH's case that they've presented their opposition to Ghost of Dan Gurney in an uncivil and excessively inflammatory manner. "he clearly has an extreme vendetta against and is desperate to hound me off this page" fails to assume good faith. So does accusing them of having "a long history of suppressing any critical information on the page... saw this opportunity and rushed to try to hound me further." Vaguely handwaving at a previous report does not suffice to make that anything less than an aspersion. Saying "I find it reprehensible that this bullying behaviour has carte-blanche on Wikipedia" is both uncivil, inflammatory, and presumes that the behavior is 1) bullying, and 2) has "carte-blanche" despite this AE request existing and there having been discussion about it in multiple talk page forums already. Regardless of how this AE gets decided, I'd admonish SAH to find a more constructive, less inflammatory way of expressing their positions. I think all involved would do well to be reminded that in a contentious topic area you need to be on your best behavior. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

SAH is still - whilst this AE is continuing and having started a DRN on the topic themselves - removing sourced and DUE information at Hardeep Singh Nijjar [21]. Quite bizarre behaviour, almost like they want to be sanctioned. Black Kite (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that Bishonen is not uninvolved here is so ridiculous that it's verging on WP:CIR. Black Kite (talk) 11:35, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tiggerjay

I've had several of the articles that SAH has been editing come up on various boards that I monitor. Unfortunately, I've been unable to positively contribute for a lack of time to read through the wall of text that SAH generates through their apparent POV-pushing style, and then sometimes Wikilawyering to support their POV. While I think that the situation is primarily one-sided, and GDG is doing a fair job of handling it well, just a reminder that the integrity of WP is not solely upon him to keep other editors in line, and perhaps not taking it too personally. I think a formal TBAN with 500 edits is a good place to start for SAH, and perhaps, if anything, an IBAN for GDG. TiggerJay (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Southasianhistorian8, you're at three times your limit and no admins have commented yet. You need to trim about a thousand words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't had the time to look into this in-depth, but I plan to in the next couple days. In the meantime, has anyone started a thread at BLPN? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've looked into this a bit more, but even based on their behavior at this report, the bludgeoning and walls of text, the incivility, and the retaliatory filing below I'm thinking at least a 3-6 month and 500 edit topic ban for tendentious editing with the hope that it will be enough of a sanction that their behavior will be better when they return. I'm also open to an indef topic ban if other admins believe that they should have to offer some proof of constructive editing to return to the topic area.

Bishonen, what SAH linked to was a discussion of your administrative actions and fulfilling WP:ADMINACCT does not make you involved. I don't see any issues with involvement here. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a plain dispute over interpretation of BLPCRIME with respect to an edit that was made yesterday, but instead of a discussion at WP:BLPN, there are three enforcement threads visible on this page and another at WP:AN. Perhaps the editors involved should try BLPN first, or other forms of dispute resolution, instead of running here to get each other banned? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I encouraged these editors to take their dispute to DRN. I think everyone needs to de-escalate, step away from the article, and let the process at DRN play out. If that fails and this acrimony continues, IBANs, TBANs, or page restrictions might be needed. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also haven't had time to research this properly, but I've noticed without difficulty that SAH's behaviour on this very page is poor. SAH, you point out that GhostOfDanGurney told someone to go fuck themselves in 2018, (near the beginning of their Wikipedia career) called somebody else a thot in the same year, and you "strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults". A block? Six years after the fact? Please don't air ancient history at AE, especially when it has nothing to do with the matter in hand. I see you offer the same diffs and others from your historical collection in the retaliatory report below, too. I'm also interested to see your explanation of Black Kite's point that during this AE, you removed sourced and DUE information at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, 'almost like [you] want to be sanctioned'. You explain that two editors on Talk wanted to "move" the information, and therefore you re-moved it, intending to move it to the body and even, virtuously, expand on it there, but were interrupted at this very point. This statement of yours flies in the face of a) your edit summary for the removal,[22] and b) what you yourself said about it on Talk.[23] In view of that, the drama where you are "unexpectedly called away" is unfortunately not credible. Bishonen | tålk 04:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]
Just noting that I think Southasianhistorian8 has rewritten much of their statement here today. Many comments others have referred to are now absent from their statement. I know that the length of their content was a concern but I don't think a participant should basically rewrite their original statement in response to other editors' complaints. It's confusing when one tries to understand the flow of the discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed they have, and that's not acceptable. Before I commented, I counted SAH's words to see if they had complied with shortening their statement. Yes, they had, it was 554 words. Then, after I had complained about poor behaviour, specifically asking admins to block G over ancient diffs, and trying to explain away Black Kite's complaint of disruption during this case, they "substantially altered it for length and because a lot of the responses were spur of the moment/unorganized". That's one way of putting it. Another would be that after my criticism and Simon223's, they removed the things we criticized. That's unacceptable on talkpages, and just as unacceptable here. Linking to the old version doesn't help much. You simply shouldn't have done it. I have restored the version I commented on, with a link to your new, massaged, less "spur of the moment" version. The time to think is before you post here, not after people have told you what's wrong with it. Note, if you decide to no longer offer an argument that's been criticized, you may of course disown it. But that's done by ~~crossing it out, like this~~. Not by removing it. Bishonen | tålk 09:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

SAH now suggests I'm not an uninvolved admin. I think I am, and I hope one or more admin/user here will please follow SAH's link to evaluate this putative involvement. Bishonen | tålk 11:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

ScottishFinnishRadish, I'm not sure what the "500 edit" means in your proposed t-ban? Bishonen | tålk 13:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

The need to both wait 3 or 6 months and make 500 edits outside of the topic area. This way they have to demonstrate constructive editing elsewhere rather than waiting out the tban. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am good with SFR's suggested 3 or 6 months (I lean 6) topic ban AND making 500 substantial edits outside the topic area (by "substantial" I mean not just adding commas or moving around stuff, but engaging with content and showing that they understand how to use reliable sources and how to edit collaboratively) Ealdgyth (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indef now? In view of this post by SAH, is it time for an indef block? Or (my preference) should we instead give them a chance to calm down? Bishonen | tålk 16:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]
I would give them a chance to calm down. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Southasianhistorian8, you don't need to quit editing or be indefinitely blocked. You just have to continue to be a productive editor without getting yourself into disputes. I don't see any favoritism here in this discussion. But when I look over your most recent 200 edits in your contribution history, almost all have to do with arguments with other editors. Can you coexist with editors you don't agree with? That's what the rest of us do. And, believe me, there are longtime editors here who have had disagreements with each other that are deeper and longer-lasting than your dispute with GhostOfDanGurney...we just keep a distance between us and do not provoke each other. Remember, this is not just an editing project but a collaborative one so you have to be able to collaborate even when not agreeing. Can you do that? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GhostOfDanGurney

No action, being looked into in another report. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GhostOfDanGurney

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Topic ban on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan related topics.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19 September 2023 Tendentious edit warring alleging "anti-Canada POV pushing" despite numerous editors' objections and RS
21 October 2023 Admits to harassing another user he was in a content dispute with on Twitter.
25 October 2024 ~~Personal attacks~~ Inflammatory edit summary, accusing of cherrypicking and being without evidence, even though most of the article included content for which evidence was not publicly disclosed and WP:OWN behaviour
22 October 2024 More ~~personal attacks~~ inflammatory edit summaries, also acknolwedged by ScottishFinnishRadish in the 1st AE
26 October 2024 Replaces neutrally worded sentence with an inflammatory and tendentious interpretation of a primary source as acknowledged by ScottishFinnishRadish, clearly attempting to publicly discredit the diplomat, thus violating WP:BLP. Also a clear case of WP:HOUNDING and WP:OWN behaviour. (Also the impetus to this while conflict)
26 October 2024 Files an A/E request over a content dispute, wasting a large amount of community time
26 October 2024 Falsely claimed I plagiarized his work
15 November 2024 WP:IDHT, brazenly ignoring sources right above him which explicitly state that Dalla's alleged criminal network was linked to Khalistani militancy
14 November 2024 Makes an inflammatory and condescending post on my talk page, accusing me of WP:NPOV violations and threatening to escalate matters before engaging on the t/p.
14 November 2024 Files another A/E request days after his first failed one over 1(!) revert and me responding to his escalation on my t/p. Instead of following WP:BRD, Ghost is filing frivolous reports forcing this platform to be a substitute for content issues. He did not engage with my arguments on the t/p of the Nijjar page which I laid out right after he reverted me, instead he immediately filed a 2nd report, then waited multiple hours to respond to my points on the t/p. He cannot even abide by Wikipedia's most fundamental policy which is to discuss when you have a disagreement with someone, not intimidate them through reports.
15 November 2024 Falsely claimed I was in violation of edit warring, citing a total of one revert.
20 November 2024 Further exhibits bizarre, unprovoked aggression despite a DRN being underway, where editors are expected to try to reach a consensus civilly.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

14 August 2020 Blocked for personal attacks
19 June 2018 Blocked for edit warring

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 21 October 2023 by Kautilya3.
Gave CTOPS warning in this topic area on 19 October 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

GhostOfDanGurney has a history of being incredibly rude and juvenile when engaged in content disputes. He regularly calls people names, assumes bad faith or incites drama through his inflammatory bheaviour-Be gone thot, Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit., [24], [25], [26], [27], among numerous other diffs. Constantly exhibits tendentious and WP:OWN behaviour in articles-[28], [29], [30] + [31], [32], [33].

Even barring the personal attacks, how is it fair that he's non stop filing frivolous reports against me-in the most recent A/E he filed, it was literally over one revert, content he personally didn't like, and me responding to his escalation on my t/p (pretty ironic considering what he says on his own t/p). Instead of engaging with my points on the article's t/p, he filed a 2nd A/E. How is that not brazen harassment and bullying and a major waste of time? How in the world is that not a weaponization of A/E to get one over an editor they dislike? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney The definition of militancy is as follows: "the use of confrontational or violent methods in support of a political or social cause." Militancy almost always involves criminal behaviour and actions, does it not? Otherwise it wouldn't be called militancy, it'd be called activism. A criminal network alleged to be close the Khalistan movement apparently does not mean violent actions taken out in order to support the movement? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney your A/E request against me- stated that I have a WP:LISTENing (IDHT) problem. Please give me examples in the past 2 years where I specifically acted against or ignored community consensus in terms of a content dispute. If you are unable to do so, it'll be overly clear that you're just throwing anything on the wall against me, as a substitute for engaging on the t/p, despite yourself far more being guilty of the same accusations you throw out. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now that a DRN is underway, it would be nice for you to at least temporarily stop inciting conflict and work towards a consensus there. If you are unable to do so, admins should issue an immediate block for failing to discuss despite initiating a content dispute and battleground behaviour. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney, an A/E report was well overdue given your lengthy and egregious WP:OWN and inflammatory conduct on various articles. You constantly using this platform as a substitute for BRD pushed it over the edge, and in of itself is sanctionable. The desperation to bar anyone from examining his atrocious conduct is telling. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [34]

Discussion concerning GhostOfDanGurney

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GhostOfDanGurney

In their statement in the above request against them, they said, "He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments". So I commented on the talk page,[35] saying that I opposed the content as (in addition to the BLPCRIME issue) there was already adequate sourced content on Hardeep Singh Nijjar#Allegations of militant activity (it's already the largest section of the article). This had nothing to do with the additional sources SAH presented to the talk page after I had removed the content.

I then wrote a sentence on the wording "criminal network" as used by SAH in their >greentext proposal which made no corroboration to any militancy, just allusions to "gangsters". It did not mention the KTF by name, and the preceding quote they posted only mentions "the Khalistan cause". An IDHT charge here is a long stretch that shows a misunderstanding of the policy, and to use the phrase "brazenly ignoring" here is an assumption of bad faith. If my above request doesn't result in sanctions against SAH, this frivolous request should. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 07:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does any of that re: militancy have to do with me "act[ing] as though [my] point must be accepted by the community when [I] have been told otherwise.", per WP:IDHT? I don't understand at all how my talk page comment violates IDHT. What about that specific comment is actionable here? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 08:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is SAH is unable or unwilling to answer the above question, this retaliatory attempt at a tu quoque style of ad hominem should be closed with a WP:BOOMERANG. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 22:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's twice now I've asked this question and gotten no response. It's obvious that this retaliatory request is a backdoor way to get around the 500-word limit that you ignored before @ScottishFinnishRadish: told you to trim it. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning GhostOfDanGurney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is unnecessary, and retaliatory. Spot checking of the diffs alleging personal attacks, I don't see anything remotely of the sort. Going back and digging up diffs from 2018 and 2021 is likewise unhelpful and represents a battleground mentality towards weaponizing an AE action that is deeply concerning. Honestly if SAH thought this was a good idea after not listening to the advice about dropping the stick and behaving more civilly on the other AE request, it probably merits boomerang sanctions to stop the disruption. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SAH, I've looked at the diffs. The ones from 2024 don't appear actionable, and I think your characterizations of them as personal attacks are a stretch. The "thots" and "go fuck themselves" diffs were, as I mentioned, from 2018 and 2021, not directed at you, and were comments from his own talk page (which is a space where he is entitled to ask people to stop/leave within the confines of WP:USERTALKSTOP, and though it doesn't excuse the incivility of the language, we tend to give a degree of leeway in those cases.) So I don't see the relevance of those edits to your dispute with GhostofDanGurney today. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blockhaj

Blockhaj is indefinitely topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Blockhaj

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Blockhaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.
22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).
23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).
23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 23:00, 15 November 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Both edit N° 1 and edit N° 2 are reverts (undoing this edit and this edit respectively); Blockhaj violated WP:1RR by restoring their preferred version with edit N° 4. Besides, disregard for RfC consensus (WP:IDHT) and POV-pushing are pretty clear. There may be a lack of knowledge of WP:RULES, as suggested by their behaviour during the Yasuke case (between 08:57, 10 November 2024 and 09:10, 10 November 2024, Blockhaj added their !votes to the Proposed Decision and got reverted by ScottishFinnishRadish here) and by this unwarranted removal of another user's comment: 19:53, 15 November 2024. Still, it's disruptive.

With the 1RR restriction now in place, their preferred description for Yasuke is now still in the first sentence of the lead section.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

11:30, 16 November 2024

Discussion concerning Blockhaj

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Blockhaj

Im sorta done with the Yasuke discussion since there is a clear motive by particularly focused edditors to not improve the page based on arbitrary systems rather than direct discussion.

As for the complaints:

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.

The rfc cannot be taken seriously by anyone interested in history. It is not a neutral statement and goes against basic principles of such subjects like Yasuke. We have very few sources on Yasuke, and educated guesses about his status, especially judgmental terms such as samurai, should not be portrayed as unanimous by historians to any degree of imagination. This is a case of echochambering. The rfc was full of users with no previous edits on Wikipedia, and the larger coherent "edit gathering" coincided with Ubisofts announcement and following damage control of their new game portraying Yasuke as a full-fledged samurai. I do not claim that every new editor there was hired by Ubisoft, but it was clearly corelated to some degree and biased in favour of the company's agenda.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the "tag bombing" (how can 2 related tags be classified as tag bombing?), they reflect the discussion which has been going on under the section: Talk:Yasuke#Full_section_regarding_the_definition_of_samurai.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).

This paragraph was out of place because it is covered later in the text with better formatting and is thus superfluous and somewhat disruptive to the latter flow.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).

This one is self-explanatory above.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Silver seren reverted various edits in one swoop without checking them, reintroducing various textual errors from previous erronous edits which i had fixed.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Blockhaj

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm thinking indef topic ban, although I'll give this a bit to see if there's any objection. Ignoring an RFC and edit warring after an arb case just wrapped up is definitely the wrong call. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecrusized

Appeal declined. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 15:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Ecrusized (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ecrusized (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: WP:CT/A-I

Sanction notice on user talk page. Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ecrusized&diff=prev&oldid=1224781735

Discussion leading to the block: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1157#WP:BATTLEGROUND User:BilledMammal

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish&diff=prev&oldid=1257767232

Statement by Ecrusized

Greetings all. Today is precisely the 180th day since the filing of my indefinite topic ban on the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was sanctioned for WP:BATTLEGROUND editing, not understanding the arbitration rules, (including 1RR). As well as a commentary towards other editors. During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. I have updated the maps of the Israel-Hamas war, and Israel-Hezbollah conflict, on Commons, after confirming with ScottishFinnishRadar, the administrator who sanctioned me, that editing commons was not in violation of my topic ban. I would like to appeal my topic ban in this area because I have now learned about the 1RR rule, what the arbitration commitee is and how its rules work. As well as my personal commentary towards other editors in the topic area. I believe my appeal is just as I have observed all of my sanctions rules since its enforcement, and I have waited 6 months to file this very first appeal on the ban as its required. Thank you all.

Ecrusized response to Red-tailed hawk

Dear Red-tailed hawk, neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I. During the time of my sanctioning from the topic, I have checked the talk page header of every article I was editing to confirm beforehand that I was not violating my topic ban. 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is an article about US and British strikes on Yemen. The article is not linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on its talk page header in any way. Instead, it is applied to enforcement for post-1978 Iranian politics. For which I was not placed under restriction for. Regarding the now deleted article, 2024 Turkish Hostage Crisis which I nominated for deletion. It was a news story citing Turkish language sources, once again, not linked to the WP:CT/A-I nor in the scope of that topic. Both of the articles are also not linked Israel, or Arab-Israeli conflict in their categories. Additionally, I was told my the administrator giving me my sanction that I must refrain from editing topics involving Arab-Israeli conflict, which is what I did. I was not told that I must also refrain from editing topics that might be related to that topic area. This is why I am asking for an appeal, and giving a bold statement saying During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. If there are clear lines defining this topic ban, I believe I have completely abided by them. Ecrusized (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ecrusized 2nd response to Red-tailed hawk

Dear Red-tailed hawk you are indeed correct that 2024 missile strikes in Yemen was sanctioned under WP:ARBPIA at the time of my editing. However, this was not mentined in the talk page header where arbitration enforcements are generally written, and in my notion, without a guideline stating it as such, I did not consider US-UK strikes on Yemen within the scope of Arab-Israeli conflict. This does not appear to be a deliberate or blatant violation of my sanctioning from the topic area, but a misidentification of the enforcement, and its mandated expression. I believe I am asking my appeal in good faith. As an user who was previously heavily involved in editing Arab-Israeli conflict articles, I have nearly completely refrained from editing them, apart from one or two articles where the enforcement was not directly visible. Ecrusized (talk) 10:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ecrusized response to Extraordinary Writ

Dear Extraordinary Writ, can you tell me about when I can make this appeal again, given that I will have refrained from any further violations or edit warring in other topic areas by then? Would it be another 6 months in minimum, or can I make an appeal, in say, 3 months from now? Thanks. Ecrusized (talk) 10:30, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Statement by Red-tailed hawk

I am going to note that the user continued to make edits to articles relating to the 2024 missile strikes in Yemen, a topic very much within the scope of the ongoing war (see Israel–Hamas war#Yemen and the Red Sea) after the topic ban was issued on 20 May. These edits include:

A substantial edit to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen made on 31 May;
A page move and associated talk page move related to a specific missile strike in Yemen that was moved on 1 June;
Another set of edits to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen on 16 June.
The user created an AfD for 2024 Turkish hostage crisis on 5 July. The article was about a hostage taking scenario that was a protest against Israeli actions in Gaza.

As such, I am skeptical of the appellant's statement from above, where the appellant said During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In response to this comment:

With respect to neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I, I will note that 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is extended confirmed protected per WP:ARBPIA (see this comment at WP:AELOG/2024#PIA), and that the infobox of 30 May 2024 Yemen strikes at the time of the page move indicated that this was part of the "spillover of the Israel–Hamas war". I do not understand how you reason that neither of these are within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed Arab-Israeli conflict.
With respect to the deleted article, I have requested it be temporarily undeleted to show the text to everybody. However, it is quite clear to me that an article about a protest action against Israel's actions in the ongoing war would be within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed WP:PIA tban.

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will note that 2024 Turkish hostage crisis has now been restored temporarily for the purposes of this discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ecrusized

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Ecrusized

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Even putting RTH's concerns to the side, we still have two warnings recently about 1RR/edit-warring issues—the very same issues that led to the topic ban. I can't support this appeal without a much better track record of avoiding revert-related problems. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:50, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In response to the question about a possible re-appeal, please wait at least 6 months. I see you have scaled down your activity since the start of the topic ban, making it a bit more difficult to demonstrate a track record of unproblematic edits within 6 months. Note that further violations of your topic ban may lead to escalating blocks, so please read WP:topic ban again to fully understand what broadly construed means (and ask the enforcing admin / any other admin when in doubt). —Femke 🐦 (talk) 15:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Carthradge

Stale, and the reporting editor had their EC permission pulled for gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Carthradge

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: IdanST (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Carthradge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBPIA4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

04:45, 23 September 2024 blatant WP:NPOV, WP:ECR and WP:PIA violations, while lying it's "Replacing link with more relevant direct link to topic".
16:42, 23 September 2024 WP:WAR violation, edit war with IvanScrooge98.
20:09, 13 October 2024 edit war continuation, blatantly violating WP:WAR, reverting again, this time edit war with me (that I reverted once to before he started this edit war).
20:32, 13 October 2024 personal attack, violating WP:NPA, while falsely claiming "they used minor edits with misleading descriptions to remove references to Gaza Genocide", despite he was the one that actually added that while he had no right to and engaged with multiple edit wars while violating WP:NPOV and WP:WAR.
00:18, 14 October 2024 he acknowledged SFR warning, that SFR reverted the edits, and later SFR even warned him twice here.
05:55, 17 October 2024 just 5 hours later he resumed WP:ECR, WP:PIA, WP:NPOV and WP:WAR violations, while ignoring SFR warnings.
18:18, 1 November 2024 as usual, WP:ECR, WP:WAR and WP:NPOV blatant violations.
Link now this page is ECR protected because that non-ECR editor didn't stop vandalising the page while ignoring admins warnings regarding his violations. There is a fair chance he'll keep vandalising, but in other articles.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Here

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

These are also nearly all the edits the user has made over the past 6 months. I believe this user is WP:NOTHERE.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

16:10, 17 November 2024

Discussion concerning Carthradge

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Carthradge

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Carthradge

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Loveforwiki

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Loveforwiki

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Capitals00 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:01, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Loveforwiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: WP:ARBPAK

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

23 October - Whitewashing with misleading edit summary. Trying to show that allegiance with Nazism and Imperial Japan is considered bad only in the western world.
27 October - Repeated the above again.
25 October - Created this POV redirect "Bharat country" because he wasn't successful over changing the page on Bharat.
1 November - added a conspiracy theory
9 November - Removes reliably sourced content with dubious edit summary
13 November - Restores his edits without gaining consensus even after being told earlier not to do this.
13 November - Restores his above edit again by using aggressive edit summary
17 November - Suppresses the word "Hindutva" despite the subject being known for it
23 November - Removes the mention of "Trinamool Congress" by locating them to Pakistan

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics): [36]

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I don't think this editor cares about the consensus process or anything else. He is here mainly to promote Hindutva agenda. Capitals00 (talk) 04:01, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [37]

Discussion concerning Loveforwiki

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Loveforwiki

<moved from Capitals00's section> I am not such kind of user. I adds contents with reliable sources. Sorry if anyone gets such vibes.. Sorry to.l Wikipedia communities. Love for Wikipedia always. Loveforwiki (talk) 04:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Loveforwiki

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I appreciate it can be frustrating to edit in a topic area where your views are often in the minority. If you find yourself in such a position, you'll need to come to talk pages with high-quality reliable sources (in high-profile contentious topics, scholarly sources may be needed to convince others). Using misleading edit summaries, attacking other editors (rather than focusing on content) and edit warring are incompatable with editing in a contentious area. Here, and with a previous warning [38], they do not seem interested in acknowledging fault and learning from mistakes. They continue to tag edits as minor [39] that aren't, after being asked to stop in September. Further edits outside of the field ([40]) indicate there may be a broader competence issue here. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 10:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]